Monday, May 24, 2010

Sharing the "Love"

Dear readers,

My sincere apologies for long hiatus, it's been a very busy year for me.
The latest news on the vibe front is that I heard from Leigh Howard Stevens again, and it seems Malletech has made some major improvements to the Love Vibe. Leigh graciously invited me back down to the factory to look at the new instrument, and I hope to take him up on that soon. In the meantime, below you'll see the latest brochure (clicking on the images lets you see them in Picassa, where you can download or see them larger). Of particular interest is the redesign of the shutter control arm, which allows the player to add vibrato at will in the same motion as normal damper pedal operation. No more straddling two pedals with one foot! The linkage that activates the shutters has also been streamlined.
Enjoy, and stay tuned!

Gavin




Friday, December 5, 2008

Malletech Factory Tour

The story behind this article and the next, and indeed my whole trip to Neptune, NJ is that on November 22 I got a short email out of the blue from Leigh Howard Stevens. Apparently he's been reading my stuff on thevibe.net where I have been a vocal proponent of progress in vibes design and have put forth some ideas about user-controlled vibrato. He had attached a PDF file of the promotional flyer for the "Love Vibe" and invited me to come to the Malletech factory to see it. The stars must have been aligned, for it so happens that the factory is only an hour and a half away from New York city, and I happened to have family in town that week so I had already rented a car. So, on somewhat short notice I made an appointment with Leigh and drove down with my brother (a former mallet player himself) who acted as photographer, sounding board, and all-around critical thinker.

Malletech Factory Tour
Upon our arrival we were greeted by Leigh Howard Stevens himself and we were shown around the premises, including the music library, the assembly room, the 'dirty' workshop where the CNC machines and other machining tools live, the tuning rooms and the mallet-making room with the computer controlled mallet-wrapping maching, which was the only thing he asked us not to photograph up close. Leigh was a gracious host and made us feel like big-shots.

(click on a photo to see a larger version)

Assembly room with marimbas ready for final inspection.


A close look at the one of the CNC (computer numeric controlled) milling machine


Assembly room with a view of the epoxy coating booths and curing oven in the back


Leigh talking about the other CNC machine


Some good old-fashioned skilled labor


The manual bar cutting station. Future marimba and vibe bars will be cut with the CNC machines


The finisher working on the brass resonators


The mallet shop. She had the machine wrap a mallet before our eyes. It took about 30 seconds!


The tuning rooms...

The piano tuner... ...and the marimba tuner.


The place where bars are selected and grouped into sets


Then at last we were brought to the room set aside for the vibraphone project, where our 'love story' takes place...

The Long-Foretold Malletech Vibraphone




The author talking with Leigh Howard Stevens about the Malletech vibraphone

Foreword - Marketing
Malletech has obviously chosen an amorous metaphor for their vibraphone's outstanding unique feature, the pedal-controlled shutter vibrato system. The literature has some fun explaining the origin of the "Love Vibe" name, but Leigh said that this was something of a working title, and the model name may change in the future. I may send them some naming ideas of my own, but the for this page I'll refer to it mainly as the Malletech vibe, since there's only one.

Note: To download the Malletech brochure in PDF format, click on these links. They are repeated at the bottom of this post.
Get the Malletech Brochure, pages 1-2
Get the Malletech Brochure, pages 3-4

Designer statement As Leigh says in his Designer Statement his main concerns in creating the Malletech vibraphone were creating a musical vibrato function, allowing for great dampening efficiency and adjustment, and reducing noise to an absolute minimum. These have all been thoroughly addressed, and since the shutter vibrato is the most newsworthy feature of the instrument, I'll start there.

Vibrato shutters The basic idea is that a long sheet of stiff material is passed over the resonators to completely close them off from the bars, as if you passed your hand between them. The shutters are fixed with Velcro at either end to a spring loaded shuttle which moves along rollers on the inside of the end blocks. The vibrato pedal pulls a cable affixed to each side. The cable tension is adjusted by guitar-style tuning machines on either end of a rotating lever pulled by the pedal.

The aluminum shuttles that move the shutters back and forth

Pedal Technique As Leigh will be the first to tell you, new musical possibilities require new instrumental techniques. No short-cuts, folks; it takes some practice to use this thing. If that discourages you, or if you even wonder why you need this feature, let me comfort you by saying that in ten minutes I was able to get over the initial awkwardness, and in an hour I began to be able to do nifty things intentionally. It's not impossible to do. In fact, if anyone can make the argument that an innovative though difficult technique can be accepted and eventually become the standard, it's Leigh Howard Stevens.

Damper down with vibrato in closed and open positions.

The technique for playing is either to work the damper pedal with the ball of the foot and work the vibrato with the toes, or place the foot slightly to the side and work the vibrato by tilting the ankle side to side. Some may get better leverage by swiveling the pedal to the left to create a better angle for their right foot. Some of this will be moot as of this writing, as they were already finishing a secondary pedal to add another (some would say easier) way of operating the vibrato. If I get the chance to play with the new pedal, I'll review it here, of course. The addition of the secondary pedal made me wonder why they didn't just go with that to begin with and have two wide bar-style pedals and have the vibrato pedal nesting inside the damper pedal. That way, the angle of the foot would be irrelevant, the position of the pedal wouldn't need to change, and it would be easier to operate the vibrato without pressing the damper (for use as a tone shifting tool like the left pedal on a grand piano). I have never been a fan of narrow, swiveling pedals but then again I can't understand why Dancing With The Stars was so popular.

Inherent Problems? Though I didn't play it nearly long enough to push the envelope much, I also wondered about the limits of the design. Vibrato in other instruments is accomplished either with the fingers or the mouth, both of with have many times greater motor control as the foot of even a very coordinated person. Granted vibraphonists must of necessity be fairly well coordinated and make deft use of their foot. But it's possible that creating a musical vibrato with it in real time while pedalling the damper and keeping balanced on the other (and hopefully playing something meaningful with the hands) may approach the limit of what the human foot and/or ankle can be expected to do. We will see how well this system catches on and how much practice is necessary to become proficient at the technique. For now, suffice it to say that Malletech's shutter vibrato system does work, and can be used musically.

The T-shaped lever rotates and pulls the shutter cables.

Damper Function and Adjustment
Historically, when a vibes player wanted to fix dampening problems, all too often it involved bending things back and forth or shimming up the pad, so some such homemade solution. In the quest for the perfect damper operation, Stevens and company adopted the attitude that more adjustment is better. It certainly is. The damper itself is a model of bottom-up problem-solving and thoroughness. There are three adjustments for the damper bar alone (leverage, travel, and tension), independent of the pedal, which is adjustable itself in at least three different ways (travel, horizontal position, and angle). To put this in perspective, vibraphone pedals up until now have had two adjustments: pedal height/travel, adjusted at the pull rod, and spring tension/damper height, adjusted at the spring screw. To have three times more adjustment possibilities independent of each other, is a major breakthrough, especially the pull ratio feature. Instead of simply putting up with the ways in which the laws of physics limit your pedalling and dampening process, you can now take advantage of them and truly customize the damper operation and pedal feel.

Three damper adjustment screws (on each side): spring tension, stop height, and pull ratio

The damper pad consists of a rectangular strip of silicone gel (manufactured by a company that also makes breast implants) with a thin layer of felt on top, which are Velcro-ed to the aluminum damper bar. The gel is solid and does not flow (and is hence not adversely affected by an unlevel floor), but is very soft and squishy and makes a great feeling and sounding damper.


Keybed Adjustment
Another innovation is the removable keybed (I dislike the term 'harp' since it's a nickname borrowed from grand piano construction where the cast iron support plate actually looks like a harp, which isn't true here), which rests at each corner on a hard silicone-tipped support screw, which can be adjusted up or down to level the keybed to the frame, and to fine tune damper function, i.e. to favor sharps vs. naturals. Once the shutters are removed with a quick rip of Velcro, the keybed can simply be lifted off the frame, with or without bars.

Progressive Dampening By now all their patents have been filed and Malletech will begin producing and demonstrating the Love Vibe with progressive dampening feature as advertised. When I saw the instrument the feature was still not on present because some design aspects of it had not been decided on, but they were manufacturing and contracting considerations, not really functional aspects. Consequently I can't comment on how well it works, but in theory it seems like a good idea to dampen the bars smoothly to keep the pedalling from sounding choppy.

Frame The design of the end sections is borrowed from the Malletech marimbas, with the rounded wooden blocks supported by three aluminum tubes. The vibe is not currently be height adjustable, but can be made to any custom height at no extra charge. The struts of the keybed are milled from solid aluminum with slots cut to reduce weight, an idea which they could reasonably take to the extreme on all other parts as well. In all the frame is extremely solid, and is the equal of the Piper and Van der Plas in rigidity. The casters are not unnecessarily large but lock down very well. With bars, the instrument currently weighs a reasonable 136 pounds, but Leigh said future modifications may shave as much as 12 pounds off that.

The bottom crossbar locks in place with a sliding collar.
The diagonal brace on the high end ca e used to support the instrument during setup.

Bars and Sound Now if you're wondering, "But will I like the sound?", rest assured you will. The Malletech Love Vibe features a set of black anodized, smooth-finished bars which are CNC machined and fine-tuned by hand. When asked about the development of their first-ever set of vibraphone bars, Leigh said, "The bars were the easiest part. We've been making marimba and xylophone bars for years. We knew we could make good vibe bars as well." And so they did.

The black-colored bars are quite striking and look great with the black frame and resonators, and the color was surprisingly non-distracting while playing. Once I began playing and thinking about the music I simply forgot the bars were a different color. For anyone concerned about playing in low light, if there is enough light to play at all it should be enough to play on black bars as well. And because it is a flat black, these bars will not be susceptible to glare in bright stage lighting like glossy or polished bars may.

It should be no surprise that Malletech would produce high quality vibe bars on the first try. Aluminum is an infinitely more consistent material than rosewood, so every bar made behaves just as it should. As expected, the tuning is first rate. The sound can be characterized as very clean and unprocessed. This may be because they were made with the same dimensions and alloy as Musser bars (remember, Stevens used to work at Musser), but without the brushed finish and edge chamfering. Leigh said he knows of an alloy that will sound even better and plans to use that for production bars.

As good as these bars are though, the reason to buy the Malletech Vibe is the engineering and the musical possibilities it affords.

Other ancillaries The end blocks will be offered in a variety of electric guitar-style sunburst colors (the prototype is blue, but green, red, orange, etc. should also be available). The vibe has tunable resonators throughout the range, which are easily tunable by hand. I knew the benefits of tunable resonators on the low end but was surprised how much difference it can make on the high end as well, and that the small movements required are not difficult to do. A marked "dipstick" will be provided to help recreate the factory tuning, if necessary.

A Work In Progress As I played the vibe and talked with its inventors for the better part of two hours, it became clear that there is still much that is not set in stone. This is a good thing because Leigh was more willing to listen to and accept suggestions (after one comment I made they rushed over to the shop and tried it out).

Things that have not been finalized include:
-the price (though Leigh said he it should be in the $7,000-9,000 range)
-whether Malletech will sell the frame alone
-whether Malletech will retrofit a shutter system on an existing frame
-whether Malletech will offer extended range vibes

These questions make me wonder if they will meet their production deadline in March, but time will tell, and I wish them the best in making every improvement they wish to in that time. Even with a prototype that had this or that proverbial rough edge, I was uniformly impressed.

Get the Malletech Brochure, pages 1-2
Get the Malletech Brochure, pages 3-4

Tuesday, December 2, 2008

Welcome!

I'm pleased to present the glorious soapbox of the only living Vibraphonist/Piano Tuner/Music Critic/Humorist/Baritone/Archer/Man-about-town.

In short order this page will be filled with expansive ramblings on all subjects known to man.

Be advised, I am in the process of distilling some of my online writings and commenting into posts for this page, which I will backdate with their original date of writing, and catching up with some more recent things as well. Look for posts as far back as 2005.

Enjoy!

Gavin McGraw

Monday, November 7, 2005

Reading Music While Playing Vibes

Adapted from comments made on www.thevibe.net

Gordon Stout has a book called "Ideokinetics" which addresses this very problem. He uses exercises which revolve around a single note which you look at, trying to play everything else with your peripheral vision. Go slow! I'm still working on this myself.

It seems that there are many more vibes players (maybe mallet players in general) who are relatively poor sightreaders than there are who are good readers. Every vibes player I've heard comment on this subject says he's a poor reader, with the exception of Gary Burton, who can read flies off the wall. He's an anomaly in more ways than one though.

This general aptitude level is probably due to a combination of things: (speculation alert!)

1. Mallet instruments really are harder to sightread on, due to the lack of constant physical contact. This perpetuates the myth that it's impossible to play a mallet instrument without looking at the keyboard.

2. Many if not most vibists come from a jazz background, in which reading is not the first priority; we don't play in a section of a big band, for example, so we usually only have changes to read, no intricate ensemble parts. (I spent most of my school years making up my own parts in jazz orchestras)

There may be other reasons too. However, this is something that can certainly improve. Stout's book and others are a good start.

Tip
The trick is developing peripheral vision, and this is easier if the music is closer to the keyboard, such that you don't have to move your head at all, just your eyes, if that. So in performance I try to put my music stand as low and FLAT as possible, as this affords the audience a better view of me, the player. Not that I'm such a knockout, but it's pretty annoying when any musician is performing with his/her head in the stand, and with vibes (or any percussion for that matter), half the performance is visual anyway. Besides, if you give them something interesting to look at, they'll quickly forget how you missed that change in bar 6 or hit a clam on the melody.

Showmanship, while not the end-all and be-all of music, is a big enough part that those who don't have it, don't tend to be as successful. Anyone who has seen Lionel Hampton, Stefon Harris, Keith Jarrett, Dizzy Gillespie etc. can attest to this. There are many who do alright without any great degree of showmanship, but this I think is in spite of this lack, rather than because of it.

Report From PASIC 2005

Adapted from comments made on www.thevibe.net

Here's a very subjective report of my PASIC '05 experience where vibes are concerned.

First a note on the venue: As always the PASIC exhibit hall is not the best place to hear the subtleties of a musical instrument, although they did have a "quiet section" for the marimbas and so on in addition to the main section, with some buffer area in between. Some mallet instruments were in the main section as they are manufactured by commpanies that make other percussion as well. Musser, Yamaha, Adams, and Ross are in this category. Some of the time there was a Yamaha 4 octave vibe at the Mike Balter booth which offered a little more isolation. In the quiet section were Bergerault and Van der Plas, and the were Adams vibes at the Encore Mallets booth and the Innovative Percussion booth.

My overall impression is that Musser, Ross, and Adams all have basically the same sound, and the major differences were in the frames, which differ quite a bit. I thought the Ross vibe, by a wide margin, had the least unnecessary frame design.

Piper's Problem
The Musser booth had a Piper vibe on display, which sounded fine and I am sure is very sturdy, but weighs so much that I have a hard time not lapsing into ridicule.

I recently listened to a podcast on Larry'sImprovPage.com that is an interview John Piper (two of them feature him I think), and he discusses the development of the Piper vibe at some length. I won't/can't paraphrase it here, but he said after all was said and done, he was still dissatisfied with some things and bugged Musser to change them, but they would no longer adapt the instrument once it was in production. He said that he has reduced his personal instrument by about 40 lbs. (taken unnecessary stuff off a production model). This indicates to me that while Piper as an individual is committed to continued improvement of the vibraphone's design, Musser, as a small part of a large multinational corporation, is not.

As to the question of application, for a gigging vibist, the Piper vibe would be a beast to transport, even with the modifications Piper himself has made. Since I have to disassemble my vibe to take it anywhere, a tank like the Piper is out of the question. But if you never take it apart and you're often going to be rolling the vibe over uneven ground or any distance greater than about 50 feet, then the heavier frames become more practical.

Some have commented that the Piper vibe is ideal for a marching band instrument because of it's sturdiness. It's hard to accurately second-guess Mr. Piper's intent in designing the his vibe, but I think that despite appearances, he didn't exactly have a drum corps application in mind. It certainly is solid, but I would submit that the all-terrain cart frames designed especially for this purpose might be a better and cheaper alternative. The Van der Plas frame, as another example, while extremely sturdy for any normal playing situations, is not designed to be an all-terrain frame. It can surely hold up very well with being rolled from the car to the gig, etc. but I wouldn't roll it across a vast parking lot, through the tunnels of a stadium, and halfway across a football field. This requires a specialized frame.

For school applications in Europe where Van der Plas instruments are more easily available, Premier and Adams make more suitable instruments with field-type frames. I would recommend VdP for more discriminating customers, unless Nico wants to get into that market and build vibes for marching band-level abuse. That's up to him, though.

Perhaps the jury is still out, but I think school concert ensembles may be the answer, as opposed to marching band, when it comes to the Piper vibes' niche.

Back to the convention hall...
The Adams frame is less unwieldy but still I wonder about their concept of the relationship between form and function. The Ross vibe frame is very similar to the Yamaha and is very simple, yet reasonably rugged. Since they all have a Musser-ish sound, I would probably opt for the Ross vibe out of those three (Musser Piper, Ross, and Adams), based on frame construction alone.

Yamaha has a brighter sound in general, especially the glossy bars. If you have experience with their pianos you may also notice this trend. Yamaha's brushed finish bars, are a little more similar to Musser. The 4 octave Yamaha vibe was respectable, though the upper extension sounded somewhat weak and the lower extension was a little boingy and neither extreme matched the sound of the rest of the instrument very well. Overall though, the Yamaha was high quality vibe in sound and construction.

Coming soon
Doug DeMorrow did not have a vibraphone on display. He said he hadn't built another new one and was currently redesigning a frame for it. Those who have seen pictures of the DeMorrow vibe from previous PASIC's will remember that its frame was identical to the DeMorrow marimba frames. He also said he's working on some innovations, such as an in-resonator mic system and spiral-shaped rotor fans. We will stay tuned for further developments.

On the topic of future developments, Leigh Howard Stevens told me that Malletech was in the beginning stages of creating a vibraphone. He didn't have any details to tell me, but I would imagine with their attention to detail they will come up with a high quality instrument.

Worst In Show
Since I've stated above that this is in no way an objective journalistic account, I won't mince words in describing how I disliked the Bergerault vibe. For one thing, the frame design seemed pretty close to that of the old Leedy and Jenco vibes of the 40's and 50's, which made it look like a dinosaur while depriving it of any chance of being efficient or managable. It's not made to disassemble well, and it weighs a ton. To be fair, it was 4 octaves, but it's heavier than it looks. The sound of the Bergerault vibe was quite unsatisfactory to me. The same boingy quality the I heard in the Yamaha's lowest few notes existed to a much greater degree in the Bergerault, and across a bigger portion of the instrument. The highest notes up to C7 sounded very thin and whiny, and again this continued down into the standard range. I suppose I could say that whereas the Yamaha sounded good in the standard range (F3-F6) and only lost sonority in the lowest and highest half octaves, the Bergerault's sound was much more uniform in tone and balance across the the keyboard. It was all equally bad. IMHO, the Bergerault is not a professional quality vibraphone.

A digression on pedal width:
I have a problem with sliding/swiveling pedals. Having adjustment options is one thing, but being veritably forced to adjust the pedal during a performance is another. When playing on a regular 3oct vibe, you're often playing in different places on the instrument, i.e. standing in different positions in space that can differ by a foot or more. I always had trouble keeping my balance while moving from one end of the vibe to the other while keeping my foot on the pedal, and moving the pedal while pedal is awkward and sometimes noisy. This is a problem on any vibe whose pedal is less than a foot wide (Musser, Ross, Deagan, Adams...). Add more notes to the instrument and it only gets worse. The best solution is to have a bar-type pedal that's as wide as possible, if not the width of the whole instrument. Those manufacturers who make them should continue, and those mentioned above should take a hint.

What the heck?
The Gramorimba is basically a stone vibe, and it sounds kind of halfway between a marimba and a vibraphone. The guy wouldn't say what kind of stone was used, but said it's not granite and not marble. The bars were much longer than normal vibe bars are, and so the low notes look lower than they sound (the range of this instrument was F3-F7, compared with the standard vibe range of F3-F6). On the free demo CD I got, the harmonics of the instrument are such that it's sometimes hard to tell which octave you're listening to. This was a fun novelty kind of instrument and it was beautifully crafted.

The Midi Controllers
I spent quite some time at the Malletkat booth playing with it and talking to Mario, and a little less time at the Xylosynth booth (maybe 10 minutes tops). To me, it's a little bit like apples and oranges, because they're good at different things.

The Malletkat no longer comes with sounds onboard, so they're both the same in that regard. The major difference in the features that mattered to me was the dampening modes. The Malletkat has a mode where you can draw your mallet or hand across a 'ringing' bar and dampen it just like a real vibe. The Xylosynth had a pedal (one of several) dedicated to dampening that worked like a shift-key on a computer keyboard. You play a chord, for example, and then slide your foot forward a bit to press the dampening pedal, while still keeping it on the sustain pedal. Then you can dampen any note currently sounding by touching it with the mallet. You can't play any other notes until your foot is off the dampening pedal though. So this feature requires practice and is not a transferrable skill from accoustic playing, which it is on the Malletkat. This was a big drawback of the Xylosynth for me.

Neither of them can do afterpedaling or halfpedalling to my knowledge.
Another thing that no one has ever tried, is a sostenuto function, like that of the middle pedal on a grand piano, where you play a note or chord and push the pedal, and then only those notes are held while the others are short. This is a CRYING SHAME, since we need that capability so much more than pianists.

The Xylosynth's bars also didn't seem to be as sensitive as the Malletkat pads. You had to use softer mallets and play a little harder. If I had a mallet synth I would want to be able to use the same mallets that I use for vibes, which is the case for Malletkat. Having said all of this, though, the Xylosynth did feel more like a real marimba, compared with the Malletkat, which feels more like a marshmallow-rimba. For me, though, the better feel of the Xylosynth doesn't outweigh the better features and intuitiveness of the Malletkat.

Drumroll please...
And now for the main event (for me anyway): Van der Plas. Some of you know that I've been in contact with Nico for several months now, as well as on his Mallet Corner forum, pestering him about the particulars of tuning, damper and frame design, motor capabilities, and possible future innovations. I was pleased to finally meet Nico and play his instruments. He had an eVibe and a 3.5 octave accoustic vibe at his booth, and was right next to the Gramorimba, which deserves a few words of its own (see below). My prior experience with Van der Plas vibes is limited to Roy Pertchik's trichromatic instrument, and the sound of those bars is somewhat conventional, though not really a copy of any other sound. At the convention though, Nico had a set of his new HDS (High Density Surface treated) bars on his display vibe. Their sound is somewhere in between that of brushed finish bars and the high-gloss bars like Yamaha has. I should qualify that statement by saying it doesn't sound like Yamaha glossy bars, but has some of the same brilliance. It also doesn't sound like the Musser brushed bars, but has much of the same warmth. I wasn't able to verify Nico's claim of up to 200% longer sustain, but that may have been the hall. In terms of volume though, I could hear the VdP clearly from a couple aisles down, and had no problem hearing myself while playing it (no extra whacking required). I think with the HDS bars, Van der Plas had solidly established a sound of his own. The HDS bars look great too. Not a mirror finish, but shiny and reflective, almost like an oyster-shell effect.

Of course, if you are used to the other sounds and like them, it's possible you might not prefer the Van der Plas sound. However, I feel that the sound quality of the HDS bars possesses the best of both worlds. I was particularly happy with the lower extension, because it was very well balanced with the middle register, and it didn't require great care not overdrive the bars as is most often the case. A regular medium vibe mallet sounds fine on the low C, with plenty of fundamental and not too much upper partials. A slighty softer vibe mallet is even better, and you can play as hard as you want without it becoming pingy. I wish it had been a 4 octave vibe, so I could contrast Nico's highest bars with those of the Yamaha and (nose up-turned) the Bergerault. However, this is not as big a deal as the low bars, as they are musically more important and harder to make well anyway.

Regarding the Van der Plas frame, it's every bit as sturdy as the Piper, but doesn't weigh as much (even with the extra notes!) and doesn't look like a steam-shovel. The motor has probably more features than any other vibe motor (which honestly doesn't take much), including fan position memory, and switching between two preset speeds (done with the touchpad or his v-beam, which takes some practice to use).

The eVibe was fun to play with. It sounds just like an accoustic vibe with pickups (because that's what it is), and the onboard effects and mixer are very convenient to use. I am not an electronics buff, so I couldn't experiment meaningfully with all the instrument's possibilities, but it seemed that it would not be long before I could negotiate the effects processor and mixer with ease. I have always been a little suspicious of vibe pickups, and generally prefer the accoustic sound where possible, but I have been in enough loud playing situations to immediaely recognize the value of the increased power and control pickups afford. Even though I don't think the eVibe is exactly right for me, it is a great-sounding and versatile instrument, as others can attest.

Keep up the innovation, Nico! Remember, "Don't rest on your laurels; they are prickly when dry."

(click on the link at the top of this post for the full discussion)